Cliff's Quadrajet Parts and Rebuild Kits
General Category => Quadrajet Carb Talk and Tips => Topic started by: Too Fast on March 30, 2017, 01:17:01 PM
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I got a rebuild kit from Cliff's a few years ago, and it has been working great.
Now I've had a transmission shop install a 2004R transmission, and apparently I need to get an adapter for the TV cable end at the carb to generate the proper swing/travel/pull. Is there some adapter I can get to bolt onto the linkage, or do I need to get a primary shaft from like an 80s Monte Carlo (or equivalent) carburetor that already has it? My shop says this is the problem.
I think there are other issues with the tranny (lockup clutch won't unlock sometimes, causing the car to stall like when you don't push a clutch pedal in coming to a stop, starts in 2ND gear from a complete stop, won't up shift sometimes, etc), but they are saying this has to be fixed first.
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What is the carburetor number ? I'm currently working on a 70 Buick carb (7040244) and I had to modify the linkage considerably because it's gonna be used with a TH200r4.
Frank.
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If it's a Chevy carb, good chance that it's good.
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Getting an 80's shaft would be you'r best bet. A half ton truck, non-CCC carb would be a good source. The OD carbs do have a different arc/swing then a th-350 carb. They look close but are different. I'm using a 84 C-10 baseplate for my set-up. I'll try to post some part numbers.
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Getting an 80's shaft would be you'r best bet. A half ton truck, non-CCC carb would be a good source. The OD carbs do have a different arc/swing then a th-350 carb. They look close but are different. I'm using a 84 C-10 baseplate for my set-up. I'll try to post some part numbers.
You're absolutely right about TH350 not having the same arc/swing as an OD carb. Some exceptions, though. I don't know why but I came across a few 79 carbs with the same location as an OD carb. I know, ODs weren't even available then. Off the top of my head, one of them carb is 17059217.
Frank.
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The 200 came out in 76 & it used TV cable, so I'm thinking the models that could have had those might have the correct throttle arm.
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The 200 came out in 76 & it used TV cable, so I'm thinking the models that could have had those might have the correct throttle arm.
You mean the "metric 200" (non OD) ? That would mean that 3 speed transmission would have a different arch than the 3 speed th350 ? If so, that explains the carbs I'm talking about. Good info.
Frank.
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The 350 didn't really need the specific arch as it is just a detent cable & doesn't control pressure.
I've used this carb & it is good with a TV cable. If the geometry is per the pic you'll be fine.
http://www.carburetion.com/CarbNumber.asp?Number=7045213
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I'm getting my Le Mans back tomorrow, I'll get the number then. I have Cliff's carburetor book, excellent info in there. I think my best bet is to get a primary throttle shaft from some 80s carb if I can't get the proper arc/swing/travel on the existing.
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Do you have any pictures of the linkage setup?
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77crusier,
No pictures yet, but I'm geting my car back today. I'm going to look at the linkage set-up and see if I can install a mount that will mimic the throw in your diagram. BTW, I found that diagram and printed it off a few days ago, along with very detailed information about exactly how to set the TV cable. I'm a professional mechanic by trade, so I should be able to set the cable myself, but I don't have transsmission pressure gauges. Maybe I'll buy some. Thank you for helping! My ultimate solution may be to replace the primary throttle shaft.
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62212 is the # on the throttle arm itself on the carb I'm running. This is correct for an OD. Hopefully you get the tranny figured out. They are a fun unit when working correctly. Let me know if you want a pic. The one I tried to post is to big and I have zero patience for photobucket.
The stalling issue is either a plugged/dirty up lock-up solenoid, or the 12V supply is not being cut when the brakes are applied. Hope this helps.
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So, here's a picture of my carb linkage setup, if it attaches ok. TV cable at the bottom. I measured from the throttle plate centerline, as best as I can tell it is 1.1" and the throw looks like it mimics the 78° arc for the TV cable. No change in operation, takes off from a stop in 2nd, (unless I manually select first) but does unlock the converter and/or downshift when it's in OD/3rd when I get on it. Still won't upshift out of first by itself on any acceleration over 30% throttle. Frustrating.
My carb number is 17057253, which translates as a 1977 Fed emissions Olds carb. Works perfectly.
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Probably best to get a gauge, usually 2nd gear starts are caused by line pressure being too high at minimum TV. Do you know if the cable is adjusted right? Is it tight at WOT?
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The cable should be adjusted so not applying TV at idle, so it shouldn't be starting out in 2nd gear for any reason related to the TV cable adjustment.....Cliff
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Probably best to get a gauge, usually 2nd gear starts are caused by line pressure being too high at minimum TV. Do you know if the cable is adjusted right? Is it tight at WOT?
It is tight at WOT. Even with the TV cable disconnected, it still starts in 2nd. I can always manually select 1st from a stop, but then it refuses to upshift whenever over 25% throttle. I can let completely off the gas, then sometimes it upshifts.
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Did the trans shop that installed it rebuild it? Usually trans shops, unless they've done a lot of 200-4r's mess them up.
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Probably best to get a gauge, usually 2nd gear starts are caused by line pressure being too high at minimum TV. Do you know if the cable is adjusted right? Is it tight at WOT?
The cable is tight at WOT. The transmission starts in 2nd even with the TV cable disconnected, as I found out when driving home from the trans shop last Monday. I got a bracket from TCI for the TV cable, and now it drives as before, downshifting by itself when necessary, but still starts in 2nd, lock-up is hit and miss, won't upshift unless I completely let off the gas. I'm sure it will be a great tranny when it is correct! Trans shop inisists I get the proper baseplate/linkage alignment before they will do any more. Good news is I have not paid them for the transmission or the 2400 stall yet, so I'm not out that ~$2k . If I fix it myself, there will be some negotiatiing on that price for sure, since they said they could do this conversion no problem.
My thoughts are it is an internal valve body issue, or a problem with the TV spring in the valve body. The shop said they rebuilt this transmission. They have been around for 30+ years, that's why I trusted them to do this. They did install 3.55 gears with an Auborn limited slip differential in my BOP differential, and that works perfectly, and I paid them for that. It was a package deal, replace my peg-leg 2.52 gears with that and do install the 2004R to replace the Powerglide.
Grrrr, getting frustrated since this started last November.
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Had a similar experience about 15 yrs. ago, had a shop with 30+ years exp. Had him build one for me & if wouldn't even hold a stock 305, so I studied up & did one myself & haven't looked back. It was good till the cheap conv. I bought from the first guy Fragged kept with & the one I have now is behind a 530 hp 421 sbc so far so good.
http://www.ckperformance.com/View/GM-2004R-TECHNICAL-MANUAL
Good book if you are interested in having a go at it.
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Thanks 77cruiser. I'm gettting a 1" spacer, so I will know I have the exact pull on the TV cable. It isn't quite right, it pulls at a slight angle instead of a direct line. The spacer will allow a correct pull. Then, I may install a pressure gauge to see what pressures I have in each gear. From what I've learned, anything over 85-90 in D or OD will not allow a 1st gear start.
I really think I have four problems: Won't unlock the torque converter sometimes, starts in 2nd always, won't upshift from 1st sometimes. Also won't lock the convertor sometimes. I know it will be fun when it's right!
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If you haven't checked in here do so, lots of 200-4r info.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/transmission-talk.12/
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Thanks Jim. I checked out some at that forum but didn't find my problem there, yet.
I have a pressure gauge hooked up, seems like I have too much pressure at idle. It's 115psi, never lower, in P, N, OD, and D. From most sources, that high pressure will not allow a 1st gear start, unless the trans has been modified for it. That's why I say most sources. I do have instant pressure rise when I touch the gas, so the adjustment on the TV cable should be close. With the cable connected, at ~1500 the pressures are up about 10 psi.
I read somewhere that if the pressure isn't lower than at least 90, it won't allow 1st gear starts. A check they said was to put it into neutral after a drive, then OD or D, and see if it starts in 1st. Mine will that way, but won't upshift out of 1st! Then next stop, starts in 2nd again then will upshift to 3rd, then sometimes 4th. Lock-up is a crap shoot.
I'm getting a carb spacer so I can be sure my geometry is perfect. If I can't with the spacer, then I'm changing the base plate, then I'll either go back to my original trans place or get a second opinion. I'm sure the connected pressure gauge will help.
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What method or methods are you using to get lock-up?
The TCC system is completely independent of the TV valve and everything else related to transmission function.
The factory used several different methods to utilize the TCC as you will find various different wiring diagrams for the valve body and LU solenoid.
Is this a "retrofit" into an older vehicle?.....Cliff
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Try to find out what he put in for a shift kit & what else is done to it. Did you check pressure @ max TV?
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Cliff, the lock-up is purely mechanical. No wires. It probably should unlock when the trans downshifts to first, but since it never does, I suspect that's part of its problem. Yes, it is a retrofit, into my '68 Le Mans with a 400 Pontiac. I'm more concerned with the shifting right now, trying to get that right, before I worry too much about the LU.
Jim, full stroke on the TV cable at about 1500 RPM equals 265-270 psi. I don't know what type of shift kit they used, I asked for something very firm. The 2 or 3 times it has worked normally shifting, I'm pretty sure the firmness I want will be there, just don't know positively since the only somewhat reliable way to get it to upshift is by letting off the gas to allow the shift. Absolutley will not upshift over more than 25% throttle.
1" 4-hole spacer for my dual plane intake should arrive tomorrow or the next day, then the pull on the TV cable will be a perfect straight pull, no slight angle. Really don't think it will make any difference (except to cool the carb/fuel some and maybe a small bump in torque), but I'm going to be sure it is all perfect before I take it back to the trans shop. Can't wait for this to shift correctly!
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The high pressure at min. TV could probably be fixed with a different pressure regulator spring. The no 1-2 could be dirt in the shift valve or another valve, or something else.
The lockup thing has me puzzled though the solenoid had the have power to it.
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I don't know how the TCC could be employed mechanically either?
At a minimum the LU solenoid should have 12v supply and be grounded on a 4th gear pressure switch. At least you wouldn't have it coming it at a stop light and killing the engine, and it wouldn't lock-up till 4th gear.
I suspect that you have much bigger troubles here than just the TV cable geometry after reading the entire thread......Cliff
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I agree about bigger problems with the tranny. I'm just making absolutely sure the TV cable is right so they can quit blaming that. I told the shop exactly what I wanted before they did any work, they positively assured me they can handle the job.
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Wanted to update anyone who sees this. Finally got the transmission back July 7th, after giving the trans shop another go at it. It is finally fixed! They admitted to a mish-mash of valve bodies and separator plates in the tranny. Now it works as it should, always starts in 1st gear and upshifts/downshifts as it should. Torque converter locks in 3rd and OD, strictly mechanical. The shift isn't as firm as I'd like, but for now I'll take it. I connected the TV cable to a stud I drilled on the carb linkage, with a detailed diagram I found on the web and here.
Also, since they had the car for a 6 week period last fall, then another 3 weeks this spring, and now for about 9 weeks, he gave it to me all at no charge for my inconvenience, mild stall converter included.
Glad to have my Le Mans back for the (rest) of the summer ;D