Cliff's Quadrajet Parts and Rebuild Kits
General Category => Quadrajet Carb Talk and Tips => Topic started by: Cadman-iac on March 15, 2026, 03:14:17 PM
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Im not sure if this is something that would be permissible here or not, but I've been doing some preliminary tests on an HEI distributor using different centerplates and weights trying to determine what degree of advance is possible for the particular parts I've got on hand.
I had found a chart on another website that gave some of these figures, but most all of them were using just one set of weights.
I have either 9 or 10 different distributors, but 4 are in various vehicles at the moment, so I'm just using what I have easy access to right now, as this started as an alternative method to climbing under the hood and swapping the parts and then running the engine and using gas to find the parameters for a given set of parts.
The only drawback to my current method is that I still don't know at what RPM's any given combination of parts gives the best advance curve.
Im able to determine what the maximum advance is, with the centerplate facing up or down, but the actual RPM's that it begins and ends at will still need to be done on the engine.
The advance springs are also another variable in the advance rate, which would also have to be checked on the engine.
I guess what im getting at here is, would anyone be interested in this limited amount of information for a handful of different centerplate/weight combinations, and would it be permitted here on this site?
Rick
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Sounds like interesting data.
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I had mine put in a sun machine, that’s the best way.
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All HEI except Oldsmobile - center plate numbers and fly weight numbers face up.
Olds HEI - center plate numbers and fly weight numbers face down.
According to Dick Paterson @ Springfield Ignition, Orillia Ontario Canada
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I had mine put in a sun machine, that’s the best way.
Yeah, I'd love to go that route, but unfortunately I don't have access to one or know of anyone that's got one.
If I found a shop with one, they'd probably charge a fortune for what I'm trying to do.
But I'm mainly trying to figure out what each combination would provide as far as the maximum mechanical advance, as far as the curve goes, I can figure that out on the engine, and can change springs to fine tune it.
Im trying to get my timing into the optimum range for both power and mileage, especially since this freaking idiot has started another war and gas isn't going to get any cheaper anytime soon.
Rick
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All HEI except Oldsmobile - center plate numbers and fly weight numbers face up.
Olds HEI - center plate numbers and fly weight numbers face down.
According to Dick Paterson @ Springfield Ignition, Orillia Ontario Canada
Interesting, I've been going by information I got from another site that had quoted a guy named Rocky Rotella, and it says that the factory installed the center plate with the numbers down. I kinda questioned that, since it makes it necessary to remove it to find out which one you have.
I'm guessing that the Oldsmobile goes numbers down because of the counter clockwise rotation of the distributor, which does make sense.
Before finding that article, I've always installed them numbers up,it just made better sense to me.
Another thing I've noticed too, when checking them with everything in place, there's several center plates that don't seem to work well number down, the weights didn't want to retract fully, they seemed to be flopping between the plate and what would be the normal stop point on the weight, if that makes sense.
You wouldn't happen to have a link to this Paterson guy, or the article he wrote would you? Thanks for your help, it's much appreciated.
Rick
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Pontiac also rotates counterclockwise, so wouldn't those also be installed numbers down like Oldsmobile?
I'm doing this on a Chevrolet distributor, and another one for a Cadillac that'll be used later on.
These blanket statements, both from Rocky Rotella and Dick Paterson give one reason to doubt, as there always seems to be an exception for one reason or another.
Rocky Rotella's article doesn't mention anything about direction of rotation at all, at least not in any of it that was quoted where I had found it.
As for Dick Paterson's that you mentioned, it breaks out the Oldsmobile as being different, and having had a couple, I knew of the difference. I had had a '68 Pontiac back in the 70's, but I had to think about that one before remembering that it was also counterclockwise. ( Learned that in high school after replacing the cap and plug wires one day. Didn't make note of the wire positions before yanking them off. Couldn't figure out why it kept backfiring through the carb, lol)
I have an older GM unit repair manual for the HEI distributor from around 1975 or '76, gotta look at it again to be positive. Anyway, one of the pictures does show the weights and center plate somewhat clearly, and I'd swear you could see the number on the center plate. Unfortunately it doesn't mention anything about disassembly of the shaft or the advance mechanism, it was mainly for troubleshooting the electrical portion of the distributor since at that time it was a relatively new system for most mechanics, and an overhaul of the unit shouldn't have been necessary at the time of printing.
I did Google Dick Paterson and got his website. He doesn't give much information, other than advertising for his distributors, so I'm guessing he probably doesn't just give out information free of charge.
Unfortunately, information like this will probably die with him .
It's one reason why I'd like to post what I can about it for anyone who can use it, like Cliff does here for carbs.
Rick
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I've seen some DIY distributor machines and it didn't look all that complicated. Just a support structure, a 12 dc motor, dimmer speed control, degree wheel, tach and timing light
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I've seen some DIY distributor machines and it didn't look all that complicated. Just a support structure, a 12 dc motor, dimmer speed control, degree wheel, tach and timing light
That's a bit more complicated than I'm ready to get into until I figure out what exactly I'm going to do.
I did a quick search for a distributor machine, not much out there, and what is is way out of my price range.
Thanks for the idea though, I may have to try that if what I'm trying now doesn't help much.
Rick
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That's a bit more complicated than I'm ready to get into until I figure out what exactly I'm going to do.
I did a quick search for a distributor machine, not much out there, and what is is way out of my price range.
Thanks for the idea though, I may have to try that if what I'm trying now doesn't help much.
Rick
How about this one, a VS drill motor, vice, plastic compass, timing light
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So I've found some more information about these centerplates and weights that is helpful. Mainly that the stamped numbers go up for Chevrolet, Buick, and Cadillac, and numbers down for Oldsmobile and Pontiac.
In other words, if your distributor rotates clockwise, the numbers face upwards.
If your distributor rotates counterclockwise, then the numbers face downward.
That's the way the factory designed it, and after testing each centerplate/weight combination, with numbers up and down, it's obvious that you get much better results with everything set up like the factory designed it.
Almost every one of the combinations performed poorly when I set it up with the numbers down, or opposite of what the factory position is. Most every time the weights did not retract fully into position, leaving them flopping around, so there's no way the advance would return to the minimum setting using just the springs.
I'll post the results of my tests in the next couple of days. It's not a lot, I only have 7 centerplates and 6 different weight numbers, but it gave me a good idea of which set I need to use to get my timing dialed in to the optimum setting, that being a WOT setting of 36° maximum centrifugal advance, and a cruise timing of 52° all in with vacuum and centrifugal advance.
Im gonna go with manifold vacuum, and advance unit with 16°, and an initial timing of 10°. The vacuum advance starts pulling at 4", and is all in at 10".
Something else I noticed is that depending upon which centerplate you use, they can change the position of the rotor in relation to the distributor shaft by a few degrees. I saw this when changing the centerplate and would have to reset my gage to compensate for the change.
I still will need to run the engine to see what the advance curve will be, and I can adjust with springs to get it into the rpm range I need.
On the vacuum advance units, I figured out how to find out how many degrees it will give you. Most of the GM originals have the degrees of advance stamped into the mounting bracket. Using this, I measured the distance from the edge of the shaft and the edge of the opening where the shaft stops. Each .013" is equal to 1° of advance, so if you've got an aftermarket unit that doesn't have any stamping on it, and you want to know how much advance it will provide, you can measure the gap and divide by .013". So for example, if it'll move .250", then it will advance the timing by approximately 19°, give or take a degree.
Hope this helps some.
Rick
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How about this one, a VS drill motor, vice, plastic compass, timing light
That's interesting, I like that idea. I think most vsr drills will turn up to around 2000 to 3500 rpm, (gotta verify that on mine though) so should be enough to get the weights to deploy fully.
Thank you very much for posting those pictures, that's extremely helpful.
Rick
Edit: How are you triggering your timing light and tach without the cap/coil in place?
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It's going to be a little while before I can post the results, I've been admitted to the hospital for a bad infection. I haven't been feeling well for close to a month now, and it finally got the best of me this morning.
One thing that I've can say about the results is that the actual engine tests are not living up to what I've been seeing on the bench tests.
So I think I'm going to have to set up that tester that 70GS455 posted. My drill will spin it up to 2500 rpm, which is perfect. I got a couple of different sized protractors to use for it.
I still need to figure out how to get a timing light to work on the distributor without the cap and coil in place. I think I can use an externally mounted coil, but I don't know how to wire it in yet.
Does anyone know how to do this and be willing to show me? I'd really appreciate the help. My thanks in advance for whatever assistance you can provide.
Rick
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I know a bud here selling 1 or 2.
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I know a bud here selling 1 or 2.
What exactly is he selling, and what does he want for it?
Still in the hospital, but hope to get sprung tomorrow if im lucky. Kidney stones can really do a number on you, if you've ever had one you'd know what I mean.
Thanks for your help.
Rick
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So I've found some more information about these centerplates and weights that is helpful. Mainly that the stamped numbers go up for Chevrolet, Buick, and Cadillac, and numbers down for Oldsmobile and Pontiac.
In other words, if your distributor rotates clockwise, the numbers face upwards.
If your distributor rotates counterclockwise, then the numbers face downward.
That's the way the factory designed it, and after testing each centerplate/weight combination, with numbers up and down, it's obvious that you get much better results with everything set up like the factory designed it.
Almost every one of the combinations performed poorly when I set it up with the numbers down, or opposite of what the factory position is. Most every time the weights did not retract fully into position, leaving them flopping around, so there's no way the advance would return to the minimum setting using just the springs.
I'll post the results of my tests in the next couple of days. It's not a lot, I only have 7 centerplates and 6 different weight numbers, but it gave me a good idea of which set I need to use to get my timing dialed in to the optimum setting, that being a WOT setting of 36° maximum centrifugal advance, and a cruise timing of 52° all in with vacuum and centrifugal advance.
Im gonna go with manifold vacuum, and advance unit with 16°, and an initial timing of 10°. The vacuum advance starts pulling at 4", and is all in at 10".
Something else I noticed is that depending upon which centerplate you use, they can change the position of the rotor in relation to the distributor shaft by a few degrees. I saw this when changing the centerplate and would have to reset my gage to compensate for the change.
I still will need to run the engine to see what the advance curve will be, and I can adjust with springs to get it into the rpm range I need.
On the vacuum advance units, I figured out how to find out how many degrees it will give you. Most of the GM originals have the degrees of advance stamped into the mounting bracket. Using this, I measured the distance from the edge of the shaft and the edge of the opening where the shaft stops. Each .013" is equal to 1° of advance, so if you've got an aftermarket unit that doesn't have any stamping on it, and you want to know how much advance it will provide, you can measure the gap and divide by .013". So for example, if it'll move .250", then it will advance the timing by approximately 19°, give or take a degree.
Hope this helps some.
Rick
Coil + goes to 12v supply. Coil - goes to the HEI module terminal that doesn't connect to ground. Coil HT to a plug. Plug strap to ground
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I had a stone once, don't ever want another, didn't end up in the hospital, but I had a spasm in my back for a few weeks.
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Quote:
Coil + goes to 12v supply. Coil - goes to the HEI module terminal that doesn't connect to ground. Coil HT to a plug. Plug strap to ground.
Quote:
That looks like it would work just fine on an open HEI.
It kinda reminds me of something I did on a 50 year old single cylinder 15hp cast iron Briggs engine after the original coil ended up toast.
I took an old Mallory coil and wired it into the points. Now it just takes a bump on the starter switch and it's running like a scaled ape, well, for a 50 year old ape anyway.
Thank you very much for your help on this, im getting out of the hospital in the morning, so I'll be giving this a try.
Rick
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I had a stone once, don't ever want another, didn't end up in the hospital, but I had a spasm in my back for a few weeks.
Hey cruise,
Yeah, unfortunately this wasn't my first go round with kidney stones. Had an episode about 2 years ago and passed almost a dozen, thankfully very small ones.
This time I wasn't so lucky. I went to the ER on the 25th, and they shipped me off to Tucson in an ambulance, and by the time they had me stripped and wired, i had quit talking altogether, and my wife says that they put in a tent between kidney and bladder. Gotta get that out in the next week or two.
This thing kicked my butt! Supposedly I'm going to be extremely tired for a few months from what the doc says.
I just told the wife that I was getting fat anyway, so decided to develop a stone to lose weight. I don't think she bought it, but its my story and I'm sticking with it, lol!!
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He has 2 dist machines. I haven’t seen him in a while, the Pontiac Dustoff is soon, I’ll see if he still has.
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Hi
I've got an Allen distributor machine. According to what you posted, you want total mechanical timing to be 36 degrees at the crank with an initial advance of 10 degrees. So you're looking for about 24 degrees of mechanical advance at the crank. If you post the centerplate and flyweight numbers you have in your collection, I'll look and see if I have any of them here. If I have any of them, I'll run them up in a HEI test distributor and see whether any of the combinations will give you the 24 degrees you're looking for.
Flyweights had two different hole sizes - please indicate whether each set is small or large hole and whether the flyweights are flat all the way across the top and bottom surfaces or whether there is a raised shoulder around the flyweight pivot holes.
Also, what engine are they going into - does the distributor spin cw or ccw.
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Hi
I've got an Allen distributor machine. According to what you posted, you want total mechanical timing to be 36 degrees at the crank with an initial advance of 10 degrees. So you're looking for about 24 degrees of mechanical advance at the crank. If you post the centerplate and flyweight numbers you have in your collection, I'll look and see if I have any of them here. If I have any of them, I'll run them up in a HEI test distributor and see whether any of the combinations will give you the 24 degrees you're looking for.
Flyweights had two different hole sizes - please indicate whether each set is small or large hole and whether the flyweights are flat all the way across the top and bottom surfaces or whether there is a raised shoulder around the flyweight pivot holes.
Also, what engine are they going into - does the distributor spin cw or ccw.
That would be fantastic, thanks. I am however in the middle of making my own distributor tester to do just that, since my initial testing method yielded less than optimum results.
I had tried to use an angle protractor to measure the amount of degrees the shaft rotates as the centrifugal advance is activated. Initially, it looked promising, however, once I picked a combination of center plate and weights, from what i have available, the yielded results in the engine fell short of the previous bench testing.
I don't have any pictures of what I've done on the distributor as of yet, but will post some once I've got it working. Im basing it off of the pictures that 70GS455 had posted.
I now have the distributor itself set up with a scale and a pointer, just need to wire in an external coil and set up a timing light and a tachometer, which hopefully prove easier than the first part to accomplish.
It's been a bit slow going as I've just recently been released from the hospital after a 10 day stay for kidney stones and sepsis, 4 days on a ventilator, so stamina is in the toilet so to speak.
To answer part of your question, I've got multiple distributors, both large and small pin weights. There's 7 center plate numbers, and 6 weight numbers. My notes are currently in the garage, and i just woke up of course, 3 am now.
Plate numbers from memory i believe are,; 368, 370, 373, 444, 469, and 482, the last one I can't remember.
The weights are; like pin 60's, LG pin 053's, sm pin 106's, sm pin 291's, and I believe small pin 105's.
The 60's weights are the only ones that have a raised boss around the pin holes.
I did some preliminary testing on weights to see what if any difference in actual weight was there as well, and the only thing I can find is in the actual shape of the particular weights as compared with each other. There is scarcely any variation in the amount of weight, and i used a jewelers scale in order to get as fine a measurement as possible.
The biggest difference is in where the weight is placed, meaning closer or farther from the pin location in order to facilitate its activation.
But I'm getting sleepy again, so will continue aotagain later. Thanks for your offer, and I will take you up on your offer, if you don't mind just verifying my results.
Rick
Edit: Almost forgot, it's on an 88 350 Chevrolet, clockwise rotation.
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Hi
Good luck in your recovery. I too have been through the agony of kidney stones.
When you're feeling up to it, please confirm the numbers you provided and I'll see what I can find out.
Also, keep an eye on Facebook Marketplace. My son and I were able to pick up an almost brand new Allen machine that wasn't working for less than $200 from an antique dealer in a nearby town. After replacing the ignition coil and one of the meters inside it, it works flawlessly.
Again, good luck in you endeavors and recovery.
DJ
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Ok, got my notes to be sure I have the correct numbers.
So the centerplate numbers are 368, 370, 383, 422, 444, 469, 482, and I have a 402 in another distributor that I have not pulled and checked yet, so there's actually 8 centerplate numbers available.
Now the weight numbers are as follows, large pin weights #053, #60 ( with pin bosses), and #139.
Small pin weights numbers, #105, #106, and #291.
I've also got two sets of those cheap aftermarket plates and weights, the weights are useless, but I might be able to use the centerplates after testing.
One other thing I've noticed is that if you take all the centerplates and stack them using pins that match the mounting holes, you can see how GM shaped them for the various advance curves. There are several that don't really have any discernible differences between them,but some are very obvious as to the difference.
I'll try to remember to get some pictures to show you the differences between the centerplates.
The weights are also only slightly different from one set to another, not really in the amount of weight, but in the actual shape of the weight. Some appear to have more material towards the rear, or outer end, which i believe makes them deploy quicker, whereas the ones with more material near the pin end would deploy slower.
No pictures available at this time, but will post once my tester is finished and working, hopefully.
Rick
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Here is some info that might be helpful:
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Here is some info that might be helpful:
Yes, those might prove useful. Were your tests done on a Pontiac distributor with a ccw rotation, or a Chevrolet with a cw rotation?
Thanks Kenth.
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Ok, just a bit of background info here, after doing all of my testing using the angle protractor to determine what the centrifugal advance each combo of plate/weight I've got on hand will yield.
Remember i mentioned that the actual engine testing results were not the same as what I got on the bench.
But comparing my bench results with the list that Kenth just posted, the differences are very slight.
For 1 example I've tried on the engine, Kenth shows that with a 370 center plate and number 139 weights, he got an advance of 25°.
On my bench test, using the same plate and weights, I got an advance of 26°, which is just 1° off.
However, on the engine, this exact same setup yielded only 20°, even when run up to as high as 4000rpm, falling short by 5 or 6° depending upon who's results you use.
What gives? I realize that the springs can have an effect on both the rate of advance as well as the total available advance, I think. Is this correct?
The next question, where would you get new springs that are not Chinesium garbage?
I have multiple sets of springs, and there are differences such as the number of coils and the diameter of the wire itself. I'll try using the smallest ones I've got to see how it affects the total available advance. This may be what I've been overlooking in the past. Any ideas?
Rick
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Please refer to attachment.
Hope it helps!
DJ
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Yes, this helps. I'm guessing that your readings are in distributor degrees because of the small numbers shown.
I'll try to get some pictures of what I've done some far as far as the test distributor. Im also using an old drill press adapter, meaning it's a fixture that holds a portable drill in order to turn it into a drill press. The distributor will sit at the top mounted above the drill itself. Then it’s just a matter of outfitting everything that would turn it into a distributor tester.
Rick
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Glad to help.
Yes, the advance numbers are in distributor degrees.
Looks like you'll need to find some different centerplates if you're going to hit your 24 degree target.
Good luck!
DJ
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Not sure if it has any bearing on the total advance or not, but can a weaker set of springs allow the centrifugal advance to continue to advance beyond what you would normally see, or do they only allow the centrifugal advance to reach maximum advance quicker than a stiffer/stronger set will allow?
Im not sure if im incorrect in my thinking here about smaller /weaker springs, after reading so many different points of view over time, i just want to get this straight in my head.
Rick
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And as promised, here's a picture of what I've been doing to build a distributor advance machine, at least as far as the distributor end of it goes.
I used a protractor that I got from Harbor Freight because of its size, it should make it easier to see once everything is working.
The base, or mounting for the unit is an old adapter tool that would turn a hand drill into a drill press, it's an old Dayton that I've had for over 25 years, and I've almost thrown it out about a dozen times, but each time I think, Murphys Law will catch up with me if I do.
If you think it looks a little odd, you're right, I turned the adjustable head upside down so that the drill points upwards, and the distributor will sit above it once I've figured out exactly how to mount it.
Then I'll make a control board to mount the coil, any switches necessary, and the wiring needed to make it work.
Once I figured out exactly how I would mount the protractor to the distributor, it was a matter of cutting and drilling everything for clearance. I also needed to add a reinforcement to the protractor itself to steady it as once I started to spin the shaft the whole thing began to vibrate. So a small piece of aluminum plate was all that was needed to stop the vibrations.
I started by first removing everything from an old distributor housing so that I could determine exactly where the mounting screws are located for each part, as I wasn't sure which ones I would have to use initially.
More to follow as things proceed. Just wanted to show my progress so far.
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Hi
Weaker springs will allow the advance to begin at a lower rpm, but will not increase the total advance available for centerplates and flyweights I tested. The combinations were taken to 2000 distributor rpms (4000 crank rpms) to make sure all the advance available was extracted.
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Hi
Weaker springs will allow the advance to begin at a lower rpm, but will not increase the total advance available for centerplates and flyweights I tested. The combinations were taken to 2000 distributor rpms (4000 crank rpms) to make sure all the advance available was extracted.
That's what I thought, but I had also read that a weaker spring could let your weights continue to advance, at least if your center plate is upside down from the factory setting.
In the correct position, I wasn't sure if this was also the case.
Thanks for posting.
Rick
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Ok!!!! Well my preliminary tests show that I've got everything wired correctly, and the timing light goes off like it's supposed to, so it looks like the only thing left is to figure out exactly how to mount the distributor to this drill press tool.
I did notice that an aftermarket ignition module, although it is good and the vehicle ran on it, in this test situation it does not put out as big of a spark as a factory ignition module does.
That was also something that I had read earlier, so thought I'd swap to a factory module and see if there was any truth to that. Yes, it's true.
Now, something I'd like some help with, as it's set up, the spark plug fires 8 times per revolution of the distributor shaft. Which is ok, except it makes trying to pinpoint the degree of rotation on the distributor for a particular plug rather difficult.
Can anyone tell me how to break this down a bit? Right now it's like trying to check your timing with your timing light connected to the coil instead of the number one plug.
Is there any way to isolate a particular spark?
I thought about taking an old pick up coil and an old timer core and cutting/grinding off all but one point, but I'm not sure if that'll work, or if I'd just be ruining a coil and core.
Any thoughts anyone?
Rick
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Well, I have a problem that is stumping me, I need some advice.
Here's the situation. I have my test distributor set up just like the one in the picture on page 1 of this thread, and it works very well, my timing light is going off at a minimum rpm of 400, which I think is fine, that allows me to pinpoint the degree at which it fires.
Here's the problem, as I speed up the drill and it reaches 2500 rpm distributor speed, the light shows that the weights are deploying to maximum at around 1000 rpm, ( I have light springs on it just for initial testing).
However, the tip of my timing indicator that is substituting for the rotor shows that im only getting around 4 degrees of advance. And I was getting a strange second flash from the timing light, you could see it on the distributor shaft and weights, like a double image.
At first I thought I used the wrong pole piece, it was a 6 cylinder one with 5 of the points ground off, but it had some really odd shaped sections to it, so I switched to a standard 6 cylinder pole piece that looks identical to the 8 cylinder one, just 2 less points, then removed 5 of them. Works exactly the same, lights up the timing light at 400 rpm all the way up to 2500 rpm. This eliminated the second flash and double image, but I'm still not showing any more than 4 degrees of advance, even though you can clearly see the weights are extending completely.
The center plate is a #482, and the weights are a #105, with just the lightest springs I have.
I also thought that it might be the aluminum reinforcement plate I installed to keep the protractor steady, causing some weird interference with the pole piece somehow, so I removed it and checked again, same result.
I swapped the capacitor in the distributor as well, just in case, same as before.
I took an old plastic rotor and ground it off on the bottom to clear everything, marked where the firing point is, and it still only shows 4 degrees of advance.
Anyone have any ideas as to what would cause this? I'm at a loss now. I'll post pictures on the next post for reference.
Rick
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#1 is the 1st pole piece with the odd shapes.
#2 is the standard 6 cylinder pole piece with 5 removed points.
#3 is my pointer for the protractor.
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The needle moves according to the speed of the centrifugal control turning, then you see the number of degrees on the scale per speed you are using.
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The needle moves according to the speed of the centrifugal control turning, then you see the number of degrees on the scale per speed you are using.
Yes, I'm aware of how it works, and it does to a certain extent, but it's not giving the results that it should be yielding.
I can manually move the weights and watch the indicator move across the protractor the expected amount of degrees, which in this case is right at 20 degrees, yet when spun by mechanical means the indicator only shows an advance of about 4 degrees. It's this discrepancy that I'm trying to figure out. What is causing this?
Yes, I can do this by installing on the engine and seeing what the results are, but that's very time consuming, not to mention how difficult it is for me to reach the distributor.
This bench test was to save my back and the gas needed to test each combination of parts. The gas used I can live with, but I'll be 68 in a month and climbing into the engine bay is not what I want to be doing at this stage of my life if I can help it.
There's got to be something that I'm overlooking, but I can't think of what it might be, any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Rick