Author Topic: cam selection  (Read 14096 times)

Offline tayto

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Re: cam selection
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2021, 05:49:44 PM »
Found a set of springs out of one of my parts distributors. Curve starts at 1050-1100 rpm. Timing mark doesn't move at idle now. Seems to have solved my light throttle tip-in detonation problem (REALLY noticable in 4th locked up at lower speeds), but still have a surge @ idle,it is slight but you can see it in the vac gauge and hear it. makes setting idle mixture a chore. I tried moving the chole closed still does it. Tried changing my initial from 0 all the way up to 15,still does it. It seems LESS with lower idle rpm, but that may be my imagination.

I notice when i swapped the springs and fired up the vac gauge was rock solid but as the engine warmed up it began moving as described above. truck has been sitting just over a hour before firing it up so it wasnt stone cold.

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: cam selection
« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2021, 03:42:01 AM »
Did you ever measure the idle airbleeds in that carb?

Some of the later carbs will have pretty large idle bleeds.  I've seen a few applications where I was able to clean up idle surging, running a little rough, etc by going a little smaller with the IAB's even when I had some control with the idle A/F ratio with the mixture screws.....

Offline tayto

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Re: cam selection
« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2021, 07:18:40 AM »
Cliff,had a busy weekend and didn't get around measuring orifices in the carb.hopefully will have time tonight after work. should I pull the idle tubes and measure them as well? thanks.

BTW, the heavier springs seem to have done the trick on my tip-in detonation problem and same with lugging in 4th. not like i like to do this but it happens from time to time until i re-gear. havent had a chance to recheck the heavy load heavy throttle detonation i experience but

Offline tayto

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Re: cam selection
« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2021, 10:09:05 PM »
Idle Discharge Holes: .089" (I assume this is a another term for "idle mixture holes" ?)
Idle Bypass Air: .046"
Lower Idle Air Bleeds: .075"
Upper Idle Air Bleeds: .067"
Idle Channel Restrictions: .046"
Idle Tubes: .033"
Main Air Bleeds: .086"
Main Jets: 73
Primary Metering Rods: 50C
Accelerating Well (main casting): ??
Accelerating Well (air horn): .051"
Secondary Air Bleed Tubes: .070" (??)
Secondary Metering Rods: DR
Hanger: I
Fuel Inlet Seat: .135"
Float Level: 13/32”
Air Flap Open Distance: 1.400"
Secondary Flap Spring: 3/4 turn
Choke Pull-off Release Time: stock


Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: cam selection
« Reply #64 on: July 14, 2021, 02:43:11 AM »
For sure that carb needs opened up some for what you are doing.

Did you happen to check the vacuum at idle speed, down around 700-750rpm's?

At a minimum I'd open up the idle tubes and DCR's and see how it responds.  A little goes a long ways but .035-.036" on the idle tubes and .052" on the DCR's should really help things out......

Offline tayto

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Re: cam selection
« Reply #65 on: July 14, 2021, 08:39:43 PM »
Cliff, opened up the idle tubes .036" and DCR's .052". Surge still there but definitely seems less. I will have a better feel for it tomorrow on my drive to work. Before I took carb off this evening was 14-14.5" hg @ 700 rpm in park. After about the same,maybe moreso 14"hg. Needle still vibrates but only swings about 1/2"hg or less. In gear (600 rpm) only about 13" hg. I figured i'd make more vacuum but i guess its the cam? Idle mixture screws only about 1.5 turns out. I think my APT is 4 or 4.5 turns up. Orange PP spring.

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: cam selection
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2021, 02:48:25 AM »
You should see more sensitivity from the mixture screws adding some idle fuel.

With some set-ups you may have to close down the lower IAB's some to smooth out idle and get better control with the mixture screws. 

I would run it for a for days to see if it likes what you did before making any more changes.

Did you happen to glance into the primary to see if there is any "nozzle drip"?

Advancing the camshaft may also be contributing to the idle deal.  I'm not a fan of cams with advanced specs and early intake closing.  If you want to tune an engine with "quirky" idle quality fine one with a Comp XE cam in it.  I've had so many troubled engines brought up here for idle issues using those cams I hope to never see another one. 

Not exactly sure why folks go that direction, but for sure short seat timing, tight LSA and advanced intake lobe positions can make idle tuning difficult in some engines........FWIW.....

Offline tayto

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Re: cam selection
« Reply #67 on: July 16, 2021, 07:29:57 AM »
Cliff, the surge is definitely a lot better after driving it for the last 2 days. It's still there but much more stable and idle seems quieter. Cam was degree'd a 107*, cam card says 108* but it was more like 107.5*. I checked before and didn't see any nozzle drip but will check again. Since the mods my idle screw has been backed up a little. Also found it seems to take off with less throttle idle since mods.

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: cam selection
« Reply #68 on: July 16, 2021, 08:20:41 AM »
That's all telling you likes more fuel to the mixture screws and transfer slots, which most combo's do.....

Offline tayto

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Re: cam selection
« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2021, 06:28:30 PM »
Cliff, what's the next step with closing up the LIABs? Use a check ball to peen them smaller then redrill? Or should I open the idle tubes or DCRs more?

Offline 77cruiser

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Re: cam selection
« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2021, 06:29:10 AM »
I tried that with mine, but couldn't get good results & I used 6-32 brass set screws.
Jim

Offline tayto

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Re: cam selection
« Reply #71 on: July 26, 2021, 09:21:44 AM »
sounds good, i'll see if i can source some locally. Did you just use red loctite to secure them? what size should i drill them to? currently @ 0.075"

Offline Kenth

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Re: cam selection
« Reply #72 on: July 27, 2021, 01:01:02 AM »
At .075" i would NOT touch the lower idle airbleeds.
For these units i often use .038" idle tubes and .052"-.055" DCR.
Also, i would not use less than 650 rpm´s idle speed in gear (A/T).
And, don´t be afraid using full manifold vacuum to the vacuum advance, some engines really like this, you may try this before anything else.

JMHO

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: cam selection
« Reply #73 on: July 28, 2021, 07:30:14 AM »
The lower IAB's can have a major impact on idle tuning with some engine combinations.

For "mild" engines making good vacuum you may be fine leaving them at .075" as Kenth mentions. 

For engines that use cams with a lot of overlap, tight LSA, or low vacuum at idle you may not be able to effectively tune them without making the lower IAB's smaller.  Keep in mind that the lower IAB's are the first place to "vent" the fuel supply passages to the mixture screws.

Creating a large leak there can reduce the signal so much up to the DCR's that you can't make the idle tubes and DCR's big enough to get good sensitivity from the mixture screws, especially if there is a pretty decent size Upper IAB venting the passages again.

I've tried tuning some pretty heavily cammed engines without making the Lower IAB's smaller and was partially successful, but it required huge idle tubes and DCR's, and even then the idle quality wasn't all that great.

I've had much better success with some set-ups that have low vacuum at idle by making both the Lower and Upper IAB's smaller vs huge idle tubes/DCR's. 

Keep in mind here that some of these engines required this simply because the engine builder and/or owner made poor parts selections in terms of compression and camshaft.  Any time you start pulling the LSA down, increasing overlap, and longer seat timing the static compression ratio becomes a pretty big player in how well the engine will idle.  IF you find your engine needing a lot of timing and fuel at idle speed the cam simply isn't all that well chosen for what you are doing more times than not.  I'm talking here about street engines.

For race engines designed to make big power in a narrower RPM range and where idle quality isn't a big deal narrow LSA and long seat timing cams are pretty much the norm and the end user expects low vacuum at idle, rough idle, stinky exhaust, poor street manners, etc........Cliff

Offline tayto

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Re: cam selection
« Reply #74 on: July 28, 2021, 09:44:27 AM »
cliff, suggestion for LIAB size to start with?

kenth, i believe i am 600 rpm idle in gear. much more  and i found the engine trys to run-on on hot shutdown.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 09:55:46 AM by tayto »