Author Topic: Rich A/F when foot out of gas?  (Read 3588 times)

Offline 1983zsled

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Rich A/F when foot out of gas?
« on: September 06, 2010, 05:19:21 PM »
I bought Cliff's book and after reading it purchased some parts to assist with the rebuild of my latest Q-jet attempt. Carb number 17080284. This carb has the large main air bleeds in both the horn and the body. I purchased the brass fill ins and drilled them to 70 thou. My engine has flat tops, with Vortec 906 heads, when you do the math its just under 10-1 comp. ratio. I have a summit K1103 cam, Duration at 050 inch Lift 214 int./224 exh and 0.442 int./0.465 exh. I followed Recipie number 2 in the book to the letter.
Initially I had 73 jets and Cliffs custom .044 tapered rods in the carb. I also have a AEM Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor and gauge. I had no problem dialing in idle at at around 13.5 to 1, but no matter where I placed the APT stop I couldn't get reasonable a/f at part cruise or at mid throttle. with the APT bottomed 2 turns out it was too lean across the board except WOT which was too rich at 10-1. At 5 turns out it was closer to 13-1 but very lean at part throttle and again 10-1 at WOT. I changed the secondary's back to the original CH rods from the DR rods and the WOT improved but was still near 12- 1 . Also every time I took my foot out of the gas the a/f would go to 10-1 for a few seconds then slowly work back to the idle setting.

This weekend I changed the jets to 75 and kept the .044 custom rods. With the APT out 2 1/4 the a/f is very close to 13:1 at half throttle and WOT is better too, but every time I let off the gas it immediately scavenges the fuel in the system and richens up to 10- 1 for a few seconds, it will climb back up to the area of 13-1 within a few seconds. I also noted that while cruising say doing 50 MPH, and I just touch the throttle it richens right up then comes back into the 13:1 range and very quickly will climb to a max of 15-1 a/f.

Sorry for the long winded question, I just wanted to get all the info in there....... :)

Is this normal? I thought that when you let off the gas it should lean out?
What are your thoughts......

Thanks

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Rich A/F when foot out of gas?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2010, 04:48:41 PM »
I've never followed one with an analyzer, so don't know what happens at decelleration?

The part of your post that confuses me, is how you go from .073" main jets to .075" main jets, and lean it up across the engine load/speed range?

I've built hundreds of the large MAB Chevy units, and installed .072 or .073" jets in most of them with .070" MAB's.  I can get them clear into the 15-16 to 1 range with the APT screw at part throttle, and raise the rods up enough to get nicely into the 13 to 1 range, or go anywhere in between.

I would double check the exact position of the metering rods in the jets, and bend the hanger arms so they are correctly located in them.  Witht the APT bottomed out, the step on the metering rods should be just above the jets, located the fattest portion of the rods in the actual jet orifice.

When the PP is all the way up, the tips should be located in the actual jet orifice.

Also keep in mind that fuel pressure, float level, and diameter of the fuel inlet seat will have some effect on your results, as these things determine the fuel level in the carburetor when it's in use.....Cliff

Offline 1983zsled

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Re: Rich A/F when foot out of gas?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2010, 10:10:25 AM »
Thx cliff,

It is kinda confusing but basically the 73 were too lean accross the board except WOT. The 76 jets actually sized at 75 , it is much better as far as a/f ratios go. The only issue I have now is the WOT ratio is still high, and the momentary enrichment after part throttle and full throttle runs. I cant seem to find much info from other guys out there running a air sniffer as to what is going on, on decelleration.

I will work on the secondaries later, and I will take your advice and make sure the primary rods are in the right location in the jet. I had laid everything out on the bench and mic'd all the spaces, according to the math, the fattest part of the rod is in the jet, when the APT is seated at full vacuum, which makes sense.

The plugs look good, no sign of lean or rich on them. I have a stock mech. fuel pump, your higher flow  needle and seat, and the float is set 5/16" from the top of the bowl.

I'll play more this weekend when I get a chance and see if I can't dial it in a bit better.
Thanks again....

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Rich A/F when foot out of gas?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2010, 04:12:56 AM »
Just some advice when tuning.

What I do here is tune for best idle quality, smooth off idle, and at light part throttle.  Then go to the track and tune the secondaries for best ET/MPH.  This often takes a few tankfuls of fuel, and some extensive street driving under various conditions, and a couple of trips to the dragstrip.  The goal is to find out what your combination of parts wants.

I go after the jet size first, heavy part throttle for best power climbing steep grades, lugging the engine without the secondaries, etc.

I tune part throttle with the APT next, going lean then richening it up till I find the best setting.

Full throttle last, and never touch the primary side, secondary rods and maybe a hanger change only.

After you have found the very best settings, hook up your analyzer and see what these settings are.  Those are your baselines.  Regardless what you see on the meter, you have to give the engine what it wants for best performance in all areas.

I shelved my meter years ago, once I figured out how to tune without it.  I don't completely trust them either.  The most accurate units have the sensor a few inches from the cylinder head, and one would really need 8 of them on a V-8 engine to see the most accuracy. 

One thing I've learned over the years, is that lean part throttle setting(s) seldom delivery the best fuel economy in the big scheme of things.  This simply happens because of the varying conditions the vehicle must operate in.  It also is going to take a specified amount of energy to accomplish this task right to start with, so you can't get around the basic laws of physics.  Every time I've tried going lean on the part throttle, I had to drive like a 90 year old lady to improve the results, pretending the entire time there was an egg under the throttle and I was going to break it if pushing down too hard.

Several years ago I had to commute 600 miles one way to see my family as I was displaced from them for job related reasons.  I'd make that run at least once a month for a couple of years.  I had a 1979 Chevy Blazer with a fresh 400cid SBC engine in it, and tuned to perfection.  That 600 mile run gave me buttloads of opportunity to mess with the APT, and I even changed jets several times.  The ride involved driving from Ohio to Virgina, down Intersate 77, which is full of hills and curves, then down thru the Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia.

Every single time I leaned up the carb to where it ran flawlessly on flat ground, fuel mileage was worse on that 600 mile run.  The engine ran fine at light load, and on flat ground did every so slightly better in fuel economy.  As soon as I started driving it under heavier load, it used more fuel with leaner settings.  At first this puzzled me some, as like most folks, I associated "lean" with efficiency.  What really happens is that with lean settings and light load, the distributor vacuum unit is applied, and the engine can tolerate the lean settings and light throttle opening.  When load is applied, the vacuum unit retards the timing, as throttle angle is increased/engine vacuum falls off.  This mandates more fuel from the carburetor so the engine can keep up vehicle speed.  With lean jetting, MORE throttle angle was required to keep the vehicle up to speed, so it consumed more fuel that it did with a richer calibration during those periods.  I consumed myself with this testing, made the trip interesting as well logging all the numbers, and seeing the results.  The ONLY time I ever got improved fuel economy with a relatively "lean" set-up, I had to let the vehicle slow down considerably on steep grades, and stay very light on the throttle.  It made the trip long and "boring", and the improvement was so slight, it wasn't worth the effort(s).

When the smoke cleared and dust settled with my testing, I ended up right back at the very first jet/rod relationship that I started out with, which had initially provided me with a very slight lean "tip-in", and a jet size that delivered great heavy/part throttle engine power.......Cliff

Offline 1983zsled

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Re: Rich A/F when foot out of gas?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2010, 05:16:13 AM »
Thanks for the advice and I will follow it.  :)

I believe you are 100 percent right on the sniffer. I don't really know how accurate they are, and I will go back to other methods described to tune the carb. I only drive the car a couple thousand mile over the summer and fuel economy really isn't that important, I want the engine to be happy under all aspects.

I pulled the carb off last night, re-checked everything and made sure the rods are in the jet properly.
After that it was dark, and I hate cleaning bugs off the car so over the weekend I'll fine tune as per your suggestions. I see how you can drive yourself bonkers trying to find that perfect balance.....

 Thanks again.....

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Rich A/F when foot out of gas?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2010, 11:41:00 AM »
Good course of action, IMHO.

Regardless of our method to tune, or check our tuning, our goals must be to acheive the very best vehicle performance in all areas.  Fuel economy will ALWAYS follow suit, as the settings which have the engine runs the best with the least amount of throttle applied, are also going to have it use the least amount of fuel to accomplish the task......Cliff