Author Topic: Primary jets and rods for AFR?  (Read 1801 times)

Offline lrust

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Primary jets and rods for AFR?
« on: August 08, 2021, 10:48:08 AM »
I am at around 15 or so AFR at 2,200 RPM on highway.  My Qjet has APT and I need to change primary jets and rods - I have spare sets from old carbs - is there anything special to the APT configuration requiring unique jets and rods?  thanks in advance.

Offline lrust

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Re: Primary jets and rods for AFR?
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2021, 11:00:04 AM »
meant for the title to say "Primary Jets and rods with APT"....

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Primary jets and rods for AFR?
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2021, 11:45:03 AM »
Not enough info.

What is the carburetor part number?

What are the engine specs and application?

What have you done to the carb and what jet/metering rods are you currently using in it?

How is the distributor set up and how much timing does the vacuum advance add at light engine load?......

Offline lrust

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Re: Primary jets and rods for AFR?
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2021, 12:42:04 PM »
Carb is 17057504 w 69 jets. I haven't opened it since it was rebuilt by your shop ~ 2017.  Pontiac 455 w SD OF cam and 670 heads.  HEI w 10 degrees initial and about 15 vacuum advance, 20 mech n by about 2,000

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Primary jets and rods for AFR?
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2021, 02:05:47 AM »
Does the engine stumble, bog, hesitate, backfire or surge at part throttle or going to part throttle off idle?

Offline lrust

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Re: Primary jets and rods for AFR?
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2021, 04:57:15 AM »
smooth transition from idle to off idle.  AFR is in band during WOT.

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Primary jets and rods for AFR?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2021, 06:08:08 AM »
If it's smooth and not surging or "flat", down on power, etc at light throttle plus smooth thru transition then it's well within range.

I put an A/F meter on mine once and saw anywhere from mid 13's to high 17 to 1 depending on throttle angle, rpm, engine load etc.  Since it runs flawlessly I didn't touch anything, removed the meter and never messed with it again.  Had a visitor here a few years back and he saw one of the spark plugs from my engine and told me it was "WAY too lean" because the plug was white.  I told him that he must be used to MSD billet distributors w/o vacuum advance and "pig" ars rich Holley carburetors, as black sooty plugs and exhaust are pretty much the norm there!.....LOL

I really don't recommend tuning specifically with an A/F gauge but they are good tool for reference.  Tune for best results in all areas, you can watch the meter to where you are at and where you are going, but I don't shoot for any particular A/F ratio anyplace.

For WOT tuning I run mine a little "fat".  It really doesn't slow it down much at the track and better than putting a piston on the oil pan or burning an exhaust valve, etc.....
« Last Edit: August 09, 2021, 05:59:49 PM by Cliff Ruggles »

Offline lrust

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Re: Primary jets and rods for AFR?
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2021, 06:37:36 AM »
Cliff, thanks for the response.  Reason I am concerned is that I went through the motor after 1,000 miles at dragweek and the bearings showed signs of detonation.  I since opened up the combustion chambers and am using thicker head gaskets.  CR should be under 10 now but I figured getting the part throttle mixture a litter fatter should give me some more margin for error.  ~Lowell

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Primary jets and rods for AFR?
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2021, 06:03:25 PM »
The A/F ratio on the primary side has NOTHING to do with detonation that would damage bearings.

Go after the secondary side and timing for that problem.

Are you using dished pistons with the 670 heads, or flat tops?....

Offline lrust

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Re: Primary jets and rods for AFR?
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2021, 05:06:50 AM »
15cc dished pistons from Ross

Offline lrust

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Re: Primary jets and rods for AFR?
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2021, 06:16:44 AM »
The APT is 4 turns from fully seated.  69 jets, primary rods are .029 at bottom and next taper is .040

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Primary jets and rods for AFR?
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2021, 10:31:36 AM »
I don't remember the carb build but likely it was recalibrated with smaller MAB's.

3.5 to 4 turns up is where I like the APT to end up.

I've only done a couple of Pontiac builds with dished pistons on them and they didn't make the power I thought they should have, but still made decent power.

Quench area is not your friend with iron heads.  Adding more quench area may not get the results you are looking for even though it lowers the static compression ratio some.

For tuning, in any and all cases set total timing first for no ping, even if you end up a little shy of "normal", as detonation with destroy the best prepared engines......

Offline lrust

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Re: Primary jets and rods for AFR?
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2021, 11:58:57 AM »
In summary sounds like you are suggesting that I NOT change the primary jetting?

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Primary jets and rods for AFR?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2021, 04:14:49 AM »
Do two simple tests.

First, do some heavy primary side pulls w/o the secondaries.  Lug the engine, climb some grades, and speed up in high gear to make sure it has PLENTY of jet in it.  If it pulls well and not nosing over, lackluster, flat, lacking power etc the jet size is fine.

Next set the APT at 3.5 turns and do some light load testing.  Evaluate transition right off idle, speeding up with minimal throttle opening, etc.

Raise/lower the APT if/as needed for best throttle response, power, etc at the leanest setting.

It may take quite a bit of driving and a couple tanks of fuel to nail down the best APT setting. 

IF you find yourself backing out the APT much more than 4-4.5 full turns you may need to go to a smaller primary rod.  I'm not sure I had the full taper rods back then but a good option for the later carbs that used the shorter rods with .026" tips.

During all of this you can gander at your A/F meter but tune for best results, not any particular reading(s).

A well thought out engine build with optimum compression, tight quench, well chosen cam, adequate timing from the VA, etc will not want a lot of fuel to be happy.

Pontiac engines are very sensitive to quench distance, especially with factory iron heads on them.  I've seen plenty of them run hot, overheat, and ping on pump gas when they shouldn't be simply because they had the pistons way down in the holes at TDC and/or thick head gaskets. 

I will not assemble one here with more than .040" quench for any reason, even it tightening things up with decking/squaring and thinner head gaskets raises the compression.

Not paying attention to these things, decking, squaring, establishing tight quench, can not only cost the end user a LOT of power they can end up with other issues like running hot/overheating.

Take the average 350 SBC build.  I get at least a dozen calls a week from folks who have just finished one up and wanting carb parts or carb work.

So I start asking questions, like what heads did you use?

What pistons and deck height?

Head gasket thickness?...etc...etc.

Most will say "stock" iron heads that were "ported", but no idea the casting numbers and 9 times out of 10 they will be 882 (door stops) with large 76cc chambers.

Deck height....not a CLUE, but likely .030" or more in the holes if they used a "rebuilder" set of pistons.

Head gasket thickness, not a CLUE, but for sure it was NOT the OEM .020" shim gaskets and probably .040-.060" thick instead.

So their engine instead of being 9.5 to 1 compression as their machinist told them which it would have been with .035" or so quench, flat top pistons and a little cut off the heads, it's probably closer to 8 to 8.5 to 1 compression......and they wonder why it doesn't idle well with their Comp XE or Thump-ya-muther cam in it and doesn't make chit for power either.

....continued
« Last Edit: August 11, 2021, 05:56:51 AM by Cliff Ruggles »

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Primary jets and rods for AFR?
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2021, 05:57:05 AM »
Compression is a BIG deal as is quench distance and quench area.  Higher compression also offsets the negatives from the tight LSA camshaft the cam companies are pushing these days.  If you don't think so look at where the factory ended up, high compression, wide LSA camshafts and super-efficient combustion chamber shapes vs the "bathtub" chambers we started seeing in and after 1968 clear till the late 1980's.

One has to wonder how and why anyone ever though that deal could be more efficient and put out less pollutants?  Matters not, they figured it out and we should learn from it.......FWIW.......Cliff