Author Topic: Dreaded nozzle drip 17056200  (Read 7931 times)

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Dreaded nozzle drip 17056200
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2022, 02:42:53 AM »
Why are hot starts "not happening"?  Is it "bucking" the starter or flooded?

That tiny gap in the carb to intake gasket has nothing to do with your issues as it would compress the second the bolts were tightened down holding the carb to the intake.

12-13" vacuum is pretty "low" for the combination of parts.  I would have expected closer to 14-16" and relatively smooth idle quality with maybe at most a "deep/heavy" sound in the exhaust.

Might want to go back thru the valves and make sure you don't have one that's too tight holding a valve open just a bit. 

When it comes to cams Crower grinds will act bigger when compared to others as they use longer seat timing providing more effective duration.  I use and prefer them as they have gentle ramp profiles and don't require a butt-ton of spring pressure like other companies that use "fast ramp" technology.

I'd also add that on the dyno Crower grinds really deliver and we've made more power with them pound for pound. 

For example, in a Pontiac 400 build with unported #16 heads at 10 to 1 compression the Crower 60916 (221/229/112) cam made 419hp/453tq.  With the next cam in their line-up the 60243 (228/234/112) the same engine made 424/465tq.

Idle vacuum for the 60916 cam was 14" at 750rpm's, the 60243 was down to 12" at 750rpms.  This is with 10 degrees initial timing.  Both cams were relatively smooth for idle quality with just a hint of "lope" with the larger cam.

I've done more dyno testing than most who will read this, and back to back cam testing on my nickel to see what works and what doesn't.

The Comp XE lobes are just pure CHIT despite the excellent advertising for them.  They also have issues at high RPM's loosing control of the valve train as the seating velocity is just too quick and even using their recommended springs (which have too much pressure for street use IMHO) we still saw a quick and abrupt end to power production on the dyno right around 4900-5200rpm's every time we tried to test one.

Sorry to wonder off track but I use these opportunities to educate others.

I'm not seeing why you are having so much trouble here and still think that you have a fundamental issue someplace.

Did you degree the cam when it was installed?

What timing set was used?........

Offline old cars

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Re: Dreaded nozzle drip 17056200
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2022, 05:16:53 AM »
The calculator you used may have been for seat to seat intake closing . Your cam card may be intake closing at .050" spec. Try this one
https://www.gofastmath.com/Compression-Ratio-Calculators/Static-And-Dynamic-Compression-Ratio-Calculator

Offline 68rs/ss

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Re: Dreaded nozzle drip 17056200
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2022, 12:25:48 PM »
Cliff, Thanks for the reply. After taking a couple days off to get some other stuff done, found cause for problems I was having. I suspected leaking intake on bottom side and was confirmed today after I took it off. 7 of the 8 ports were sucking air/oil from the bottom. Checked intake machined flange and found one side to have high spot where heat riser port is. Will be sending this new intake back for refund. It never fit properly from the beginning, with filing bolt boss's and holes to fit. One would think, with everything being new there would be no issues like this. I did use a brand name gasket and torqued bolts to proper torque and order in progressive higher settings till proper torque value was reached.
Will be using cast Q-jet intake in its place. Modified plenum to make two sides and smoothed out corners. Only disadvantage is the thing weighs a ton. Hopefully this will work OK.

I kind of enjoy Cliff sharing his knowledge here. Most of us learn by either reading or with someone's help.

When this is running again, will post update.
Thanks for the guidance and suggestions. learned some stuff.
Phil

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Dreaded nozzle drip 17056200
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2022, 02:45:36 AM »
The factory cast iron intakes are excellent, especially the early high rise variety.

Don't sell the later "flat" big block intakes short either.  I've helped out quite a few folks in FAST and Pure Stock using them and they make great power.

Not that long ago I helped a customer from Canada with his 1970 Chevelle 454 being built for FAST Class racing.  He must use the stock flat iron intake.  The engine was stroked to 496cid, well prepared heads, high compression and I provided the carb and helped with the cam selection.

It cranked out over 580hp and nearly 600ft lbs torque with the "flat" intake and no spacer under the carb!  I know a lot of folks who ditch those intakes for an aluminum "high rise" intake on engines making a LOT less power thinking they are helping the engine out someplace.  Then they loose even more power "cobbling" things up to get the air cleaner to fit under the hood or their Cowl induction to fit, etc.......

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Dreaded nozzle drip 17056200
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2022, 02:48:19 AM »
I still remember the last Edelbrock intake I installed on a 454 Chevy engine.  It didn't fit for chit and required taking an angle grinder to it so it would sit down and seal the gaskets.  I'm not all that fond of them right to start with and even less when you have to modify them to make them fit......FWIW......

Offline old cars

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Re: Dreaded nozzle drip 17056200
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2022, 04:42:08 AM »
“Modified plenum to make two sides and smoothed out corners. “

What does modified plenum mean? Can you post pictures?

“Checked intake machined flange and found one side to have high spot where heat riser port is.”

Similar to checking block deck and cylinder head surface this is done with a machinists straight edge/bar. How many thousands was it out?

“It never fit properly from the beginning, with filing bolt boss's and holes to fit.”

Have your heads been planed and/or engine deck?

Machining deck/heads can cause misalignment for the intake manifold including end end gasket squish / thickness required on chevy engines. Also BBC intake manifold gaskets come in different thickness and quality. Such as Felpro 1212 Printoseal .060”
thickness or Edelbrock 7203. End gaskets are not recommended. Use RTV Silicone 1/4” inch bead aprox.

This applies to both aftermarket and OE intake manifolds.


Cliff
 If your example did not have rules to follow for his class that 750  Quadrajet on a dual plane aftermarket intake manifold would have been too small on cfm by a couple hundred . This is where the aftermarket manifolds shine / The cork in the system becomes
the carburetor, especially on a true dual plane intake.

Offline 68rs/ss

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Re: Dreaded nozzle drip 17056200
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2022, 05:33:59 AM »
Two photos of cast intake. Original and after. Used RPM as template to remove casting which pretty much went to floor of plenum. Just smoothed out transition to runners. Was pretty much at right angles to runners.

Block is not decked. Heads did have a few thousands planed off to make true. Edelbrock intake has four bolt boss's that interfered with ridge along top of mating surface, just below valve cover. Couple of holes needed to be enlarged to fir bolts.
One side has .010 high spot at heat riser. Yes, checked with straight edge. Used Fel-Pro .060 gaskets with silicon bead on end rails.
I did not check angles of machined surface on intake, when I get my other intake back from soaking, I will compare.

So, in my mind, for the amount of money spent for this product, I feel quality was pretty low quality for issues found.  Will it may make more HP? Maybe....? Only way to tell is with dyno or strip time. Don't have either.

Phil


Offline old cars

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Re: Dreaded nozzle drip 17056200
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2022, 07:27:30 AM »
What was the Edelbrock number?

Cutting the divider between the two  plenums (moderate to ? ) , you allow cylinders to draw from all four barrels instead of just two. It converts a dual plane intake into a single plane intake that has longer but more tortuously routed runners. A true dual plane intake , where the left and right hand plenums are separated , each cylinder sees only half the carb's CFM capability. This is why a true dual plane can require a bigger carb than normally thought of.
 Think of the Z28 1969 302 and 1970 350 which had a true dual plane fully divided intake and a 780 holley.

But you can always rely on the plenum cutout when the carb cfm falls short. Big blocks in the 454 cubic inch and up, are already hurting for flow.

If a certain power output is targeted , in practice , an oval port single plane intake with a short cam
( this is what I did ) makes as much or more low end output as a dual plane with a big divider cutout and a longer cam.

I think this could be a very good test of your cast iron intake.

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Dreaded nozzle drip 17056200
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2022, 07:39:25 AM »
"Cliff
 If your example did not have rules to follow for his class that 750  Quadrajet on a dual plane aftermarket intake manifold would have been too small on cfm by a couple hundred . This is where the aftermarket manifolds shine / The cork in the system becomes
the carburetor, especially on a true dual plane intake."

Some race Classes require the factory intake to be used.  Nothing more, nothing less.  My example simply shows that a flat iron big block Chevy intake is fully capable of making big power.  It's not meant to compare it to anything else. 

You also know nothing about the carburetor used, it was done here and specifically built for FAST Class racing.  To maintain the privacy for my customers I will not reveal any details on those particular units.  I have other Q-jets out there in FAST Class applications, several run into the high 9's and those cars do it on 8" bias ply tires, so the level of performance we are getting is most likely WAY above the vehicles owned by most who are reading this..

I'd also add here that on more than one occasion I've back to back tested intake manifolds with no other changes.  I've also tested them in conjunction with 4 different 1" spacers. 

On one outing (private track rental) I tested my "modified" cast iron Pontiac intake against the new (at that time) Tomahawk intake.  I also added a 1" spacer to the Tomahawk as well for comparisons.  The Tomahawk intake is basically a well modified Holley Street Dominator single plane intake professionally ported by Dave at SD Performance then used to supply the scan for the final product originally marketed/sold by Ace at Pacific Performance Racing.

Without a spacer it ran SLOWER everyplace, 60', 1/8th and 1/4 mile, worse in ET and less MPH.

With a 1" spacer and eventually swapping over to my very well prepared 4781-2 850 Holley DP carb it ran almost 2mph faster, but slightly slower in ET by .02 seconds to my factory cast iron intake with no spacer at all.  I repeated the test and same thing buy .03" seconds slower but still almost 2 MPH faster.

Where it really gave up power was 60' and short times.  Even with a stronger top end charge (it obviously made more upper mid-range and top end power) it was not enough to offset the loss of low RPM and average power.

So it was NOT hitting the converter as hard, the tires as hard, or pulling as hard off the line thru the 60', but pulling harder at the top end of the track.

I know testing like this is difficult for some folks to understand or accept.  Edelbrock (and many other companies selling "high performance" parts) have to tell us how much better they or they'd have trouble selling them in the first place.  So if you don't test anything you'll simply be like everyone out their and think that all of these products are superior to factory parts at every level.......FWIW

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Dreaded nozzle drip 17056200
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2022, 07:44:15 AM »
"Cutting the divider between the two  plenums (moderate to ? ) , you allow cylinders to draw from all four barrels instead of just two."

NEVER cut down or remove the divider in a dual plane intake.  I've had to put dividers back in quite a few over the years.

It can help to remove a small amount of material between the secondaries, about have of a 50 cent piece, but removing part or all of it KILLS off more power and it can/will induce stumble/hesitation/bog going quickly to full throttle that is difficult and often impossible to tune out.

Yes, I've done a LOT of testing in that area as well and dyno and drag strip tested my Pontiac cast iron intake many times against aftermarket intakes.  The final result will outrun Edelbrocks RPM intake on the dyno and at the track to engines making at least 500hp.  Plus it fits under the hood just fine and doesn't require "cobbling" to use Shaker or factory Ram Air set-ups, or a drop base air cleaner (they can move the lid too close to the carb and rob power) for hood clearance.......

Offline 68rs/ss

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Re: Dreaded nozzle drip 17056200
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2022, 09:04:20 AM »
Just to clarify, I did not touch the divider. The two cross overs cut out between the two sides are factory.
So, I guess I would be wise to use a four hole gasket with stainless shield that I had got from u when I got my kit.
This thing is not going to cause me any problems I hope.
Phil

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Dreaded nozzle drip 17056200
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2022, 10:51:25 AM »
You must use the factory gasket arrangement to effectively seal off the "hot slot" in the front of the intake.   If the holes are left open on each end of the "channel" then there will also be hot exhaust gasses traveling across under the carb to heat things up for improved thermal efficiency (allows a leaner mixture to be burned as it's heated a bit).

Good idea in theory but it can be problematic in actual use so many engine builders and owners of vehicles with engines using those intake block them off. 

You'd be AMAZED at how many early Chevy carburetors are sent here with a carbon track across the bottom of them clearing showing that the wrong gaskets were being used and there was a HUGE vacuum/EGR leak into the engine. 

Anyhow, the gasket goes down against the intake and the stainless steel shim gasket directly against the carburetor.  No other gaskets are used or needed with that set-up.......

Offline old cars

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Re: Dreaded nozzle drip 17056200
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2022, 11:43:41 AM »
"50 cent piece" This is like a history lesson . Have not seen a 50 cent coin here in Canada for years. Don't even remember the size of it. Anyways I googled 50 cent US coin (1.2" diameter ) so half of that is .6 inch ( moderate ) . I should have specified a dimension.
Looking at the picture of his intake wouldn't it be better to drill/tap/plug the channel , unless you live in a cool/cold climate driving.

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Dreaded nozzle drip 17056200
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2022, 03:28:10 PM »
There are still thousands of early GM engines in use out there that use additional passages in the intake to heat the bottom of the carburetor.  Once in a while we'll get a complaint or tech call to the shop from someone having fuel percolation issues that they believe is being caused directly by too much heat to the carb from that system.

Many times we actually find out that they have other issues instead, but we still do get some legitimate complaints from folks who have those set-ups.  It is ALWAYS in the hottest summer months, never in cool/cold weather.

I don't leave it open here on most builds we've done simply because of the way these cars are used these days.  Most only see use in summer months and it's usually pretty hot out as well.  I've never seen any negatives anyplace from blocking off the holes as the intake eventually gets pretty hot anyhow and transfers a good bit of heat to the carburetor unless the later type thicker gaskets or spacers of some sort are used........

Offline 68rs/ss

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Re: Dreaded nozzle drip 17056200
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2022, 03:43:56 PM »
Just a update on my carb and new engine build. Engine dyno today. Engine fired right up and performed very well. Carb was very close with modification recommendations by Cliff. A/F ratio was good on primary side and secondary side needed a little richer rod. I had turned down some extra DR rods by by .010 and .020 in case. Used the .010 one in the end. Timing was 34 total with 10 initial. Idle speed at 750. Did find a couple small issues. After full throttle pull, idle went rich. After some investigations, we found secondary side was hanging open a little. Throttle shafts worn, so will be bushing this side as well. I didn't think the secondary side was a issue as for as worn shafts/bushing. Most play was up and down and not front to back. Will watch for this in future.
Top cover leaking, so will need to check float and gasket.
I expect some of my initial issues when I had first posted were poor ignition wires and old distributor. Half dead battery didn't help much either.
440HP and 451tq in my little 396. Happy with this. I expect I may need to do some fine tuning when it is the car.
Will be calling shop soon to get required parts.
Thanks Cliff for your assistance in all this.