Author Topic: Lowering BSFC numbers on dyno  (Read 1855 times)

Offline tenxal

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Lowering BSFC numbers on dyno
« on: April 17, 2020, 05:57:17 AM »
   Great forum...thanks.

   I've been doing dyno work and the BSFC numbers on both my good performing QJets are in the high .4's to low .5's. I'd like to get that number down to the mid .4's or lower.

   Any recommendations and/or experience is appreciated! Thanks!
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 06:10:33 AM by tenxal »

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Lowering BSFC numbers on dyno
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2020, 06:15:14 AM »
Nothing really to worry about.  Way back when I was doing the KRE head testing and articles for Popular Hot Rodding's "Engine Masters" and HPP magazine we back to back tested my 1977 Q-jet against a very well prepared Holley 4781-2 850 DP carb.  The Q-jet actually made more power but the A/F wasn't quite as "clean" and BSFC a little higher. 

Since then I've repeated that testing a number of times on the same dyno and NOTHING we've ran against the Q-jet will outrun it, but it's just not quite as good at metering having those huge secondaries fed by two fuel nozzles vs carbs with boosters in them.

Interesting but twice after the dyno testing we carried the same carbs tested to the track after the engine went back in place and the Q-jet outran them by about .02-.05 seconds and a little higher MPH, verifying that the dyno numbers were indeed accurate.......Cliff

Offline tenxal

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Re: Lowering BSFC numbers on dyno
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2020, 06:49:48 AM »
    Hi Cliff. The power piston is blocked on both of this one (no primary metering rods) with 68 primary jets. On the secondary side, I normally run either .056 or .061 rods with a 'G' hangar. On the dyno, the AN (.070) rods gave more power and cleaned up the BSFC a bit. I'm hesitant to lean the secondary side much more, though. I can certainly go to 66's on the primary and see what happens.

   Is there any air bleed mods that may help the BSFC numbers? I know the lack of boosters is a biggie on the secondary side and contributes to the higher BSFC's when compared to a well done Holley that can get into the low .4's.

    I've got two really good carbs so I'm not adverse to using this one as a 'mule' carb while we're on the dyno.

    Your thoughts and time is appreciated!  :)

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Lowering BSFC numbers on dyno
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2020, 10:09:04 AM »
You can shorten the tubes slightly and open up the holes in them to help clean things up a tad.

You will find much more precise tuning by using custom machined secondary metering rods than factory ones.

Few if any are machined to the same specifications for tip length, upper section diameter, taper and included angle leading to the tips.

ALL of the successfully racers I do work for use custom machined secondary rods for accurate metering changes on the dyno or at the track.

What carb number...7029207?  Sounds like a SA or Super Stock type tune in one of those.....

Offline tenxal

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Re: Lowering BSFC numbers on dyno
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2020, 05:49:08 AM »
   Yes, Cliff...NHRA Stock Eliminator small block Chevy.  :) I have two excellent carbs...the 7029207 I'm working with and an Edelbrock 1901.

   I know what you mean about the metering rods...the AN's I have are everywhere from .686 to .700 in tip diameter! The 0.061's are lathe made, as are the .056's. The AN's are unmodified and are .686 diameter and the taper seem to be consistent. I like the idea of working with the air bleeds. I'm headed to the dyno this morning and will check the air bleed sizes and touch base later. Is there a percentage of orifice change you'd recommend? If they are .036's for example...would a 10% change be advisable (going to .040)?

   Thanks again!
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 05:57:43 AM by tenxal »

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Lowering BSFC numbers on dyno
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2020, 04:29:18 AM »
Hire someone to machine a full set of metering rods for you from the same cores.  Some racers are more "anal" than others.  I have customers that want ever .002-.003" from .030" to at least .060" and a couple bigger sets for higher altitude tracks.

Can't argue with them as they are at the top of the pile for what they are doing.

Once you have a fully machined/accurate set of metering rods the tuning begins.  I like the tubes to be shortened apprx 3/16" and .036" hole size.  Some racers claim going bigger helps, others go smaller.

LOTS of opinions out there and you'll find that the "old timers" that sit around at the big races and run WAY under index without exhausting much effort have things pretty nailed down.  They have made so many runs they can get up in the morning, take a deep breath, look around and go pick out a hanger and rod that will be good to go for that day, and change to exactly the right combo when the sun comes out or a front blows in.

I like to be more "scientific" than that and prefer to use a very well made set of rods and log all the runs and learn from the results, using DA calculations, track conditions, etc. 

Dyno runs help some, but not dynamic so things change considerably when you get to the track and engine between the fenders with a hood on it.

Other variables are fuel pressure, N/S size and float settings.  All sorts of opinions there as well.  Some racers run tiny seats and sky high fuel pressure, others low pressure and huge seats.  Some run the small floats, others the large ones, a few run brass (NOT recommended).

I don't do a lot of that sort of work these days, absolutely no money in it for the time spent, and the customer base more times than not knows WAY more about it than I do, or at least that's how they come across on the phone.  Most are also cheap and don't want to spend any money, so countless hours on the phone to make a $10 sale doesn't work well for me as I'm too busy with other things.

I still don't mind helping out, and whether they will tell you or not, (most do not) I have carburetors prepared here whipping up on just about everyone at many of those events especially in the newer Pure Stock and FAST Classes.

Not sure where you fall in the learning curve, just getting started or decades of experience, but one piece of advice I will give here is to figure out how to do two things BEFORE you do much tuning.

Keep the bowl FULL on hard runs all the way down the track and make sure you have taken steps to keep ALL the fuel in the bowl on a hard launch.  Until that happens it's difficult, if not near impossible to nail everything else down as far as tuning is concerned........Cliff

Offline tenxal

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Re: Lowering BSFC numbers on dyno
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2020, 05:01:17 AM »
     Thanks, Cliff.  The secondary air bleeds measure .039 and are 1.050 in length, (measured from the underside of the carb top).



     I keep the fuel pressure at 6 psi (at the carb) and it's rock steady during a run. Fuel regulator is a bypass style, fuel bowl stays full, float level is 1/4" and I never go bigger than the .135 needle/seat. Generally, the 'G' hangar has given the best performance on a given day, whether foot braking or on the two-step. I've been involved with QJets in NHRA class racing since the late '70's...they are by far my favorite carbs to work with. My thinking is that if we could get the BSFC down to the low-mid .400's like we can with the 4GC's and Holley stuff, we'd see some significant gains. Maybe not possible with the non-booster secondaries?  With a private dyno facility available to me now, we've had the chance to dig into this a bit more.

    Again, thanks for the assistance. I've got another virgin 1901 Edelbrock to do and I'll be ordering from you fairly soon.  :)

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Lowering BSFC numbers on dyno
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2020, 03:57:01 AM »
If you are leaving on the floor (2-step) you might want to take the POE out of the equation.  Some do and some don't.  Depending on the size of the holes leading into the POE voids it changes the fuel curve and can continue to add fuel all the way down the track.

Easiest way is to simply remove the tubes and see how it works.  If it doesn't stumble all over itself coming up on the brake you should be good to go.

The hanger becomes a much smaller player once you go to a full set of machined metering rods with long tips on them.  They are a little finicky to machine (brass) and I like to zinc plate them when finished....very time consuming so expensive.  My eyes don't serve me as well as they used to either, so it's a full day in the lathe to make a custom set these days, and with the zombie apocalypse going on I can't keep up with parts orders let alone get to all the emails and phone calls!

Hopefully things will settle down some, but right now I can't get near a carb or any shop work, just doing parts and some "tech" for folks who spent a little money with me........

Offline 77cruiser

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Re: Lowering BSFC numbers on dyno
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2020, 05:56:29 PM »
You ever try this with the bleeds?
Jim

Offline 77cruiser

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Re: Lowering BSFC numbers on dyno
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2020, 05:58:09 PM »
You ever try this with the bleeds?
Jim

Offline tenxal

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Re: Lowering BSFC numbers on dyno
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2020, 05:28:48 AM »
    No, I haven't.

    Nice workmanship! :)

Offline 77cruiser

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Re: Lowering BSFC numbers on dyno
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2020, 05:59:24 AM »
It's not mine, borrowed the pic. I guess if you have opportunity to dyno it might be worth a try.
Jim

Offline tenxal

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Re: Lowering BSFC numbers on dyno
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2020, 06:05:06 AM »
    Touching back on this....taking the secondary air bleeds from .039 to .043 made a definite improvement. Cleaned up the BSFC and it averaged 4 hp and 4 lb/ft of torque more from 5,600 to 7,000. Peak power was up 5 h.p. The power from 6,000 to 7,000 only varied 2 h.p. so it's a nice flat curve just where the engine spends most of it's time.

    Taking the bleeds up to .0465 did show a slight loss.

    I've got to rob some bleed tubes from some core tops, redrill to .043 and reinstall.

   

Offline 77cruiser

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Re: Lowering BSFC numbers on dyno
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2020, 06:30:39 PM »
Let us know if you try the ones like in the pic. That was a nice improvement just making them bigger, to a point.
Jim