Author Topic: Poor idle  (Read 4480 times)

Offline Guadzilla

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Poor idle
« on: January 30, 2021, 02:18:06 PM »
Working on a 70 trans am q-jet 7040270.  Poor idle and lots of movement on vacuum guages.  While running if I close off the bowl vent for an instant the engine shuts down like I tuned off the key.  Should there be that much vacuum in the bowl.

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Poor idle
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2021, 03:38:56 AM »
Which "bowl vent".  The bowl on that carb vents in at least 4 places.......

Offline Guadzilla

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Re: Poor idle
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2021, 01:00:06 PM »
Working on a 70 trans am q-jet 7040270.  Poor idle and lots of movement on vacuum guages.  While running if I close off the bowl vent for an instant the engine shuts down like I tuned off the key.  Should there be that much vacuum in the bowl.

Offline Guadzilla

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Re: Poor idle
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2021, 02:24:25 PM »
The 3/4" vent on the front that pokes through a hole on the lower air cleaner plate.  Plug it and it kills the engine instantly

Offline Kenth

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Re: Poor idle
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2021, 12:33:15 AM »
Is this a 7040570 carb?
No such vent on a 7040270 unit.
Either way, no vacuum in float bowl, only atmospheric pressure.
Pictures?

Offline Guadzilla

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Re: Poor idle
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2021, 11:20:09 AM »
You're right it's a 7040570 and there shouldn't be any vacuum in the float bowl.  What could be wrong to create vacuum in the float bowl.  It has evap system.

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Poor idle
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2021, 04:08:14 AM »
The only other place it has to vent on that airhorn is past the gasket where the secondary metering rods go thru it.  There isn't a vent in the airhorn behind the choke flap and POE wells vent internally back to the float bowl.

I've never seen one that would stall the engine instantly when you covered the large vent in the front but I've never really tried that move very often.

In any case it wouldn't be "vacuum" in the bowl it should be at standard pressure and pressure would only build up if you blocked off all the venting so the incoming fuel would raise the pressure some or quit flowing into the bowl as venting is required for fuel to be able to come in under low pressure.

Anyhow, "rough" idle can be caused by many things.

Big cam with tight LSA is one.  Not enough compression for the cam being used is another.

Not enough initial timing.

Not enough fuel available from the carburetors idle system.

Vacuum leaks like sucked in intake gasket.

Bad spark plug(s), plug wires, broken valve spring(s), worn cam lobe(s), etc, etc, etc.

I would try several things here.

First try advancing the timing.  I'd also gently "tip-in" the choke flap to see if it smooths out some.

Eliminate any vacuum leaks. 

If it's missing on one or more cylinders try to figure out why?

Compression test, pull one plug wire off the cap at a time and see which ones are firing well and which ones aren't...etc....etc.....

Also no mention of engine specs, what is the engine and what has been done to it?

More information is better than less..........Cliff

Offline Guadzilla

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Re: Poor idle
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2021, 04:04:30 PM »
Cliff  Thanks for the checklist.  The pontiac 400 RA III engine
has 160 psi compression in all 8, a Ram air 4 spec cam and all new ignition parts.  No missing at speed.  Vacuum guages at idle alternate from 8 to 15.  I'm thinking the intake manifold gasket isn't sealing but no indication of hissing. Should I pull the manifold.

Offline Kenth

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Re: Poor idle
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2021, 01:10:23 AM »
The RAIV cam in a 400 will need 15° initial timing.
And your carb will need at least .037" idle tubes and .055"-.059" idle down channel restrictions.
Without this you can expect nothing but poor idle.
A/T or M/T?

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Poor idle
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2021, 03:51:19 AM »
The RAIV cam is a very poor choice in one of those engines.  I get more complaints from folks who have tried that combo than any other.  The real RAIV cam has over 80 degrees overlap, so kills signal to the carburetor making for poor idle quality.

You can "crutch" the scenario with a lot of timing and opening up the carburetor some, but that cam really needs high compression, 4 speed or at least a 3200 stall speed converter, and at least 3.90 rear gears........

Offline Guadzilla

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Re: Poor idle
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2021, 08:37:00 AM »
Cliff, Keith,  Thanks I was afraid of that, so I can't expect a nice even 15 inches of vacuum at idle.  I have the timing as high as it can be without the idle falling off again at around 15.  Would a ram air IV speced quadrajet help. It has the original turbo 400 trans. Carb bogs when trans kicks down.
Thanks for your help.

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Poor idle
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2021, 03:08:38 AM »
The real RAII and RAIV engines had high compression with very small combustion chambers in the heads.  Even with higher compression the real power curve really doesn't start coming on till past 3000rpm's or so.

Using a RAIV cam in a RAIII or lower compression build with "D" port heads just doesn't work well.  They don't have the good flowing round port heads and most of the combustion chambers, especially on the auto trans cars are quite a bit larger (lower compression) than what was used on a real RAII/RAIV engines.

I've had a good many brought here for custom tuning over the years and never once impressed with them anyplace.  With the auto trans engines you'd pretty much have to drop it off a floor jack at full throttle to do a decent burnout!  They fair a LOT better with a 4 speed application and pretty tall gearing but never on par with a real RAIV anyplace.

As far as tuning you can push the timing up and add idle fuel to get them to idle decent, but it doesn't change the laws of physics here, the real cure is a smaller cam or a lot more compression, higher stall converter (or manual transmission) and at least 3.90 rear gears........FWIW......Cliff


Offline Guadzilla

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Re: Poor idle
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2021, 04:38:37 PM »
Thanks Cliff for your honesty.  I wish it had a 4 spd which goes in easy but it's a numbers car, so putting the right cam in is the logical approach.  So the cam is cuasing the rough vacuum osculation from 7 to 15 inches.  It will do burn outs if it doesn't bog and go 60 to 80 mph in a flash. 3.51 stock auto gears.  Try covering up the bowl vent on one these carbs. I have a 7042262 that I'm going to put on it to see if it acts the same.
Thanks
Tom

Offline Cliff Ruggles

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Re: Poor idle
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2021, 01:36:45 AM »
The distributor could be adding to the issues.  The timing may be fluctuating some at idle speed.

Adding timing and idle fuel will help improve vacuum and idle quality.....

Offline Guadzilla

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Re: Poor idle
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2021, 11:44:56 AM »
Timing light strobe is steady at idle.  Turning my idle mixture screws in and out barely has an effect on idle speed.